Chat Transcript for 01/21/08

Bevan Whitfield: ooooo

Olando7 Decosta: aagggh currency games is it a casino

Elle Connaught: Excellent discussion.

Bevan Whitfield: ohh

Temporal Mitra: well done, Beyers....

Piet Garfield: Thanks for this discussion.

IYan Writer: great job beyers & the panel

Tommy Brouwer: thanks to all! fantastic session

Beyers Sellers: testing, testing.....federal government, can you hear me?

Beyers Sellers: T minus 24 min to NASA/NDU/NOAA metanomics liftoff

Flix Saiman: Please go about your buisness we arnt listening!

Beyers Sellers: let me know if you are out there....

Ze Novikov: lol

Marc Montague: Yeap, I hear you... signed George W. Bush

JenzZa Misfit: woohooo !!!!!!

Nathanael Westland: Homeland Security hears you here

Alanagh Recreant: nope...but may be my settings

Bevan Whitfield: lol Nathanael

Robins Hermano: loud and clear

Marc Montague: What is the topic today

Speed Meriman is frustrated, no valid street address for surveillance van = no pizza delivery

Flix Saiman: Look.. for the last time .. I am not listening to you John.. I dont know where you live at in oregon. And we dont care that you work at Taco Bell.. this never happened..

Flix Saiman: Actually speed you can get delieverd to the pizza van.. Just have to mug the delivery boy!

Speed Meriman muses and schemes, ty flix

Elle Connaught: What is NDU?

Flix Saiman: Not Delivered U

Curric Vita: Today's topic is Federal Agencies in Second Life. If you are interested in some background info as we wait to begin, please see this link:

http://metanomics.net/20-jan-2008/federal-agencies-second-life

Elle Connaught: They will mug us for our piza?

Alanagh Recreant smiles

Elle Connaught: National Defense University

Lovely Encore: Hi everyone! Rockcliffe is all set up and ready to go! Need a place to sit? Rockcliffe Unveristy is hosting today's Metanomics discussion! We have plenty of seats, sandwiches and beer ....come hang out with the Rockcliffe community! Here is the slurl:

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Rockcliffe%20I/150/224/69

-- End of Log ---

[11:02] 57 Miles: with you 100% nite

[11:02] Bevan Whitfield agrees with Nite.

[11:02] 57 Miles: hi everyone!

[11:02] Malburns Writer: Hi 57

[11:02] Rose Springvale: what did nite say? :(

[11:02] Alanagh Recreant waves

[11:02] Bevan Whitfield: hey 57!

[11:02] Rose Springvale: hi 57 :)

[11:02] Nite Zelmanov: Even the hosts and panellists don't seem to know enough not to keep a mic open :(

[11:02] Bevan Whitfield: [11:01] Nite Zelmanov: I think the old non-SL-voice format worked way better

[11:03] DJ Waki: the globe is now open

[11:03] Tex Rhode: /growing pains

[11:03] Rose Springvale: we had the opposite result.. the sl voice format worked great for us

[11:03] Fleep Tuque: SL voice seems to work fine once you get the hang of it, we used it for EDUCAUSE and several other big events.

[11:04] Fleep Tuque: Much easier to coordinate than a shoutcast if you don't hve a streaming server available.

[11:04] Tex Rhode: there needs to be the option, especially in events like this, for a flat voice space option

[11:04] CeAire Decosta: Depends upon the eccentricities of how SL feels on a particular day!!

[11:04] Jenn Hienrichs: omg, where are you?

[11:04] Bevan Whitfield: Hi Jenn!

[11:05] Jenn Hienrichs: nope

[11:05] Fleep Tuque: Flat voice space?

[11:05] Jenn Hienrichs: sry, rezzing....hope i'm not standing on anyone.

[11:05] CeAire Decosta: I know I sing off key, but?......!!!

[11:05] Fleep Tuque: laugh

[11:06] Tex Rhode: /non 3-d, so every one hears the same

[11:06] Beyers Sellers: well. a few minutes late.....

[11:06] Nite Zelmanov: Agree with Tex. A flat space (instead of the spatially localized sound) would be better

[11:06] Fleep Tuque: You can do that with a group call.

[11:06] Beyers Sellers: but close enough for government work, isn't that what they say?

[11:06] Keenan Yengawa: The easiest voice is always a group call yes Fleep I agree

[11:06] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Horse shoes and hand grenades.

[11:06] CeAire Decosta: I think they allowed for getting started - note the slide says 11:15.

[11:06] Tara Yeats: LOL Beyers... and today is, after all, govt work

[11:06] Farqot Gustafson: Don't forget H-bombs, Felix!

[11:07] Troy McLuhan wonders if anyone has been to a campfire in SL, with sing-along. Alice the camel has 10 humps... ♪♫

[11:07] CeAire Decosta giggles!

[11:07] Typewriter Tackleberry: i love those humps

[11:09] Travis Ristow: Can I get a Feed URL ?

[11:13] Fleep Tuque: Can't remember the usual audio only feed, but I believe it should be live at http://slcn.tv

[11:14] Typewriter Tackleberry: yeah steve!

[11:14] Malburns Writer: same code as video i think - just mp3 instead of .mov

[11:15] Grace McDunnough: http://streams.slcn.tv/private.mov

[11:15] Rose Springvale: http://media-us-2.soundreach.net:8811/metanomics_show.mp3

[11:16] Travis Ristow: Thanks everyone!! Got it

[11:20] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Anyone else hear that distortion?

[11:20] Elliott Martynov: yeah

[11:20] Farqot Gustafson: Yes - that's her feed

[11:20] CeAire Decosta: Yes

[11:20] Sonja Strom: me - i do

[11:20] Cindy Ecksol: yes, some distortion...

[11:20] Elliott Martynov: nasa doesn't have the best technology. lol

[11:20] Rose Springvale: yes

[11:20] Rose Springvale: lol. she'

[11:21] Rose Springvale: she's in dc

[11:21] Farqot Gustafson: Talking on the lowest of three bids

[11:21] Tara Yeats: lol

[11:21] Xantha Oe: NASA Virtual Worlds conference: http://amesevents.arc.nasa.gov/virtual-worlds/index.php?fuseaction=home....

[11:21] Troy McLuhan: The SL group associated with the NASA CoLab project is called "Space CoLab"

[11:21] Hooligan Dollinger: "Houston, we have a problem"

[11:22] CeAire Decosta: Probably her headset on govenment contract purchase....

[11:22] Sonja Strom: heehee

[11:22] Troy McLuhan: Space CoLab meetings are Tuesdays at 1pm PST in the sim 'NASA CoLab'

[11:22] Fleep Tuque: geez, rough crowd today :P

[11:22] Alfons Adlerstein: keeps dificult to follow her

[11:22] Rose Springvale: /smiles at fleep... today??

[11:22] Elliott Martynov: she's a machine maybe

[11:22] Fleep Tuque laughs.

[11:22] Harper Beresford: that headset cost at least $500

[11:23] CeAire Decosta: And is worth $19.95

[11:23] Elliott Martynov: yeah lindens maybe

[11:23] Harper Beresford: it's not the headset.. it's the connection.. which costs them $500 too

[11:23] Tara Yeats: no budget = 2 tin cans and a string

[11:23] Sequoia Hax: audio cut out?

[11:23] Alfons Adlerstein: don t care about the headset, would be nice to understand what she is saying

[11:25] Temporal Mitra: imagine...using the latest web technology to publicize the program...what a bad idea...lol

[11:26] FelixAlbatross Nostram: I can't hear a word she is saying. Not one word.

[11:26] Harper Beresford: did you cam up to the stage?

[11:26] Harper Beresford: I am having no problems hearing

[11:26] Temporal Mitra: yeah...but the cost is negligible...compared to say...a hammer or a toilet seat...

[11:26] Tex Rhode: is your camera right on the avatar speaking?

[11:27] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Yes, but the backgrown distortion is unblievable. I'm logging out and back. maybe that will take care of it.

[11:27] Harper Beresford: cam right up to the stage and you can hear fine

[11:27] Fleep Tuque: If you're having difficulty, focus on the avatar and use the little chat bubble button to the left of the TALK button to adjust the volume of individual speaker.

[11:27] Nite Zelmanov: Paulette has no voice dot

[11:27] Troy McLuhan: I hear her

[11:27] Harper Beresford: she does

[11:27] Harper Beresford: i can hear her

[11:28] Tex Rhode: / i am hearing her fine

[11:28] Temporal Mitra: she does for me

[11:28] Nite Zelmanov: Well aren't YOU guys lucky, then? ;)

[11:28] Zachh Cale: Just up her volume anyway

[11:28] Nite Zelmanov knows all about upping volume. I hear Beyers, but Paulette isn't even in my list :P

[11:28] Harper Beresford: relog nite

[11:28] Cindy Ecksol: we're not hearing her out here in partnerland very well....

[11:28] Sonja Strom: I think some are hearing her live? and some via broadcast. So they may have different experiences.

[11:29] Nite Zelmanov just reconnects voice instead. It worked BTW

[11:29] Rose Springvale: that doesn't help on the stream though Nite

[11:30] Temporal Mitra: gonna be hard to seat 240...when an island will only let 100 folks in at any one time

[11:30] Tex Rhode: Paulette needs the free amphitheater from Metanomics

[11:30] Bjerkel Eerie: LOL I am going to be referring to her as PP

[11:30] Troy McLuhan: 240 avatars?

[11:30] Nite Zelmanov: Really it would be nice to have 20,000 Avs w/ a focussed + spatial sound setup - you know, like a huge venue in RL

[11:30] Tex Rhode: errr, I mean Clever Zebra

[11:30] Malburns Writer: 100? if you're lucky! lol

[11:31] Cindy Ecksol: they'll have to have several islands butted together....

[11:31] Troy McLuhan: Maybe at the corner of 4 sims, like in the Kula sims

[11:31] Nite Zelmanov: Shoot for the skies

[11:31] Temporal Mitra: that is how ibm did it...put their amphitheater right where four islands abut

[11:31] Tex Rhode: Maybe SL/LL could have one very large sim for extremely large events that they could rent out?

[11:31] Troy McLuhan: The Metanomics / SLCN solution is nice - partner sims watch the video stream

[11:32] Malburns Writer: Best way Temporal

[11:32] Temporal Mitra: thinks they would do it with one island...and four void sims

[11:33] Troy McLuhan: Void sims max out at 20 or 25 avatars I think

[11:34] Temporal Mitra: I know they are sim lite when it comes to prims...dont know about resident counts

[11:35] Temporal Mitra: how do you know that the person behind the avi is who they are claiming to be...

[11:35] Fleep Tuque: Who are we supposed to send questions to?

[11:35] JenzZa Misfit: *** If you have questions **** send them in IM to Beyers Sellers ****

[11:35] Fleep Tuque: I think I missed that part

[11:35] Harper Beresford: i was on a sim with stream for 4 hours with 80 avatars this weekend

[11:35] Fleep Tuque: Thanks JenzZa!

[11:35] Keenan Yengawa: Well they don't offically max out at 25, but it is a bad idea to try it... Says the guy with so little sl knowledge

[11:35] JenzZa Misfit: Fleep ! like radar !

[11:35] JenzZa Misfit: lol

[11:35] LifeFactory Writer: Her sound is becoming progressively worse...are others experiencing this as well? I barely hear her at this point.

[11:35] CeAire Decosta: That's a question in any online venue situation.

[11:35] Beyers Sellers: you can type questions right in here

[11:35] Beyers Sellers: makes my life easier :)

[11:35] Rose Springvale: yes, the sound is very fuzzy

[11:36] Fleep Tuque: Q: Is the Department of Education one of the parties to the consortium she's organized?

[11:36] Nite Zelmanov: Life: Her sound has remained constant for me so far, but it's very bad. The ongoing static makes it increasingly harder for my brain to focus on her words

[11:36] CeAire Decosta: Question Beyers - can they clean up her voice transmission?!!!

[11:36] Cindy Ecksol: yes, on the stream her voice is very hard to hear - bad signal/noise ratio

[11:36] Hooligan Dollinger: It would be nice to get a transcript of this broadcast since it's been very tough to hear/understand. Is that in the plans?

[11:36] Fleep Tuque: Yes, they'll be providing transcripts

[11:36] Harper Beresford: I hear her fine.. are you all cammed up to her?

[11:36] Beyers Sellers: yes, transcript in 24 hrs or so

[11:36] Fleep Tuque: It was in the announcement

[11:36] Malburns Writer: Old sound method was far superior

[11:36] Nite Zelmanov: SL voice was meant for the escort market I think, not for large meetings ;)

[11:36] LifeFactory Writer: THat is cute, Nite...a failure of synapses and not streams! :)

[11:37] Hooligan Dollinger: thx Beyers

[11:37] Sonja Strom: The Archive videos are normally worked out. :)

[11:37] LifeFactory Writer: hear her loud and clear!

[11:37] Sonja Strom: via broadcast?

[11:37] Rose Springvale: ah, good audio there now

[11:37] Temporal Mitra: wow...amiee's voice is loud and clear

[11:37] Sonja Strom: yes

[11:38] Fleep Tuque laughs.

[11:38] CeAire Decosta: She's clear as a bell.

[11:38] Bevan Whitfield: yes

[11:38] Fleep Tuque: No more shopping, that's a deal breaker. ;)

[11:38] CeAire Decosta giggles!

[11:38] JenzZa Misfit: *note to self : do not trademark JenzZa ***

[11:38] Rose Springvale: lol

[11:38] Bevan Whitfield: lol JensZa

[11:39] Temporal Mitra: note to self...before trademarking myself....get a better skin...

[11:39] Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm....no more shoppig in RL either....:-)

[11:39] JenzZa Misfit: Temporal ... LOL .. awwww

[11:40] LifeFactory Writer: That should be easy...the difference is in compensation! :D

[11:41] Harper Beresford: not always a clear process with the government.. lol

[11:41] Temporal Mitra: have to get 50 bids for that all important texture purchase....

[11:41] FelixAlbatross Nostram: the government is non profit? That's a laugh.

[11:42] Sonja Strom: No, it only draws in money.

[11:42] JenzZa Misfit: ....I think that was nonProphet *cringe*

[11:42] FelixAlbatross Nostram: lol

[11:42] Bjorlyn Loon swats at JenzZ.

[11:42] JenzZa Misfit: :-)

[11:42] Temporal Mitra: is there a subsection of the GSA for "creation of virtual objects on a non secure digital platform"?

[11:43] CeAire Decosta: LOL Temporal!! Probably some staffer is working on it now!!

[11:43] Cindy Ecksol: wow, was THAT a leading question???

[11:43] CeAire Decosta: With some silly acronym attached!

[11:43] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Copyrighting an AV that you can't even download to your own hard drive. Nothing is more vitual than that!

[11:44] Keenan Yengawa: I wonder why people would want to be paid in US dollars?

[11:44] JenzZa Misfit: here comes the backchat flood !!

[11:44] Bjorlyn Loon: difference between copyright and trademarking

[11:44] Temporal Mitra: how does one do cost plus on artistic creation?...

[11:44] Harper Beresford: felix, you can download the image

[11:44] Harper Beresford: she has that avatar on the cover of her book

[11:44] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Not the code.

[11:44] Malburns Writer: Hm - dollar not a happy beast today either over here

[11:45] Harper Beresford: well, time will allow it to happen, felix

[11:45] Fleep Tuque: The dollar isn't a happy beast anywhere at the moment. ;)

[11:45] CeAire Decosta: Yes, but my mortgage company doesn't accept Lindens!

[11:46] Trixie Timtam: What? It's only 5-7% drops almost worldwide....what's the problem...just a little setback....recession..what recession?

[11:46] FelixAlbatross Nostram: What happens to everyone's work if SL goes bankrupt and shuts down?

[11:46] Fleep Tuque: ;)

[11:46] Harper Beresford: felix, time will allow this to happen

[11:46] Dnali Anabuki: we sue.

[11:46] Cindy Ecksol: ah, yes, that is definitely the questions

[11:46] CeAire Decosta: And the lawyers get all the dough!

[11:46] Nite Zelmanov: I can't wait to read about that lawsuit

[11:47] Rose Springvale: as it should be:: duck::

[11:47] Bevan Whitfield: tsk tsk

[11:48] Bjerkel Eerie: If LL goes broke, the bankbuptsy courts will take over SL an they will run it better than teh lindens

[11:48] Beyers Sellers: any more questions???

[11:48] Beyers Sellers: please :)

[11:48] FelixAlbatross Nostram: All my questions are off topic. :)

[11:48] Fleep Tuque: Q: When approaching others in the federal department, what are the primary objections they hear (biggest concerns) and how are they overcoming them (best arguments for)?

[11:49] Fleep Tuque: er federal government, not one dept. ;)

[11:49] Precocious Destiny: Has the educational entities thought of partnering with the private universities who have larger discretionary accounts

[11:49] Bjorlyn Loon: fantastic question Fleep!

[11:49] Precocious Destiny: espeically in the tech departments for AI, and data information

[11:49] Typewriter Tackleberry: And have they done any work with international organizations like the UN?

[11:49] FelixAlbatross Nostram: What a about privacy? ie-Saved logs..

[11:49] CeAire Decosta: Public educational institutions are looking at SL.

[11:49] Cindy Ecksol: Beyers, I'd like to hear any thoughts the panelists have on what DOES happen if SL goes bust and all the "investment" they've made disappears. Are they accounting for these resources as software, services....or something else?

[11:50] Sequoia Hax: (sorry - who do we send questions to?)

[11:50] Nite Zelmanov: OMG, I so want onto the US National guard VW

[11:50] Nite Zelmanov: If only it were still the 80s

[11:50] Harper Beresford: post them here, Sequoia

[11:50] Beyers Sellers: just type them write here, Seq.

[11:50] Fleep Tuque: (just type them in here Beyer's said)

[11:50] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Beyers is reding the chat.

[11:50] JenzZa Misfit: post questions in this box

[11:50] Sequoia Hax: ok thanks ;)

[11:50] Rik Riel: Is there any interest in using Teen Second Life or other youth-oriented VWs like There or Whyville?

[11:51] Rik Riel: (Sorry if this was brought up earlier.)

[11:51] CeAire Decosta: They are there Rik!!

[11:51] Malburns Writer: Are fed agencies working on basis that SL is US territory or are they working jointly with foreign govt agencies too?

[11:51] CeAire Decosta: At least in Teen Second Life.

[11:51] Rik Riel: ok, disregard

[11:51] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Do do all this stuff, they really have to bullet proof SL.

[11:51] Xantha Oe: qwaq is great for team collaboration

[11:51] Bevan Whitfield: good question Malburns

[11:51] Sequoia Hax: (a question for any of the panelists) - do you foresee federal agencies using SL/virtual worlds not only for offering services to their constituents, but for communicating with federal agencies of other countries, i.e. for diplomatic purposes?

[11:51] Nite Zelmanov: Malburns: Haha, SL is US territory. That has a scary ring to it

[11:52] Nite Zelmanov: never heard SL referred to as territory before

[11:52] CeAire Decosta: That's an interesting concept!!

[11:52] Sequoia Hax: (and/or use SL/virtual worlds for purposes other than education? such as what?)

[11:52] Rik Riel: danke, Beyers. (Full disclosure, I work for Global Kids.)

[11:52] Sonja Strom: training...

[11:52] FelixAlbatross Nostram: The govenment getting involved more into SL is scary, in terms of the Patriot Act.

[11:53] Cindy Ecksol: hey, the US and USSR claimed the moon.....why not SL?

[11:53] Sonja Strom: communication...

[11:53] Bevan Whitfield shudders.

[11:53] Harper Beresford: al gore invented SL

[11:53] CeAire Decosta: We all should just accept it - there is no personal privacy anymore.

[11:53] LifeFactory Writer: As long as you are not trying to bring down the government, Felix, they do not have much time to worry about you.

[11:53] FelixAlbatross Nostram: I'm not accepting that!

[11:53] Precocious Destiny: I have a hard time believing govt agencies are not using the technology behind Virtual Worlds for more than just education and communication

[11:54] Harper Beresford: I agree with Life.. who really cares abuot what little old me is doing? They have better things to do.

[11:54] Troy McLuhan: In my experience, it's not "the government" getting involved in SL, it's government *employees* trying SL out

[11:54] LifeFactory Writer: Government aside, there is no privacy in SL, and to believe so is simply naive.

[11:54] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Like echelon.

[11:54] Farqot Gustafson: He didn't invent SL, Harper; just the lag...

[11:54] Harper Beresford: lol

[11:54] Precocious Destiny: Troy..I think this interview is an example of that

[11:54] Typewriter Tackleberry: yeah Canada!

[11:54] CeAire Decosta: LOL Farqot!!

[11:54] Malburns Writer: lol

[11:54] Farqot Gustafson: ;-)

[11:55] Harper Beresford: i don't think they will put their more "covert" government operations on a public panel, do you?

[11:55] Bjerkel Eerie: they use it to virtuallly torture people y making them try to use LSL

[11:55] Precocious Destiny: heck no...but we were talking about privacy and security

[11:55] Sonja Strom: Haha!

[11:55] Precocious Destiny: laugh

[11:55] Bevan Whitfield: LOL

[11:55] CeAire Decosta: But someone could "lose" another government laptop with all sorts of private data on it......

[11:55] Malburns Writer: Will this panel be public broadcast ????

[11:55] FelixAlbatross Nostram: I forsee a day when virtual wolds will use something like PGP to encrypt private conversations.

[11:56] Harper Beresford: it's put on a website, Malburns

[11:56] Sonja Strom: That is probably why the Coast Guard has created its own virtual world.

[11:56] Cindy Ecksol: ouch, bjerkel!!!

[11:56] CeAire Decosta: Or a business or corporation charged with keeping information secure gets hacked.

[11:56] Troy McLuhan: Yes Malburns I think SLCN is recording it so it will go up on their website

[11:56] IYan Writer: aside: I still can'T believe simple PGP-like encryption is not yet standard on main email clients.

[11:56] Malburns Writer: Great

[11:56] FelixAlbatross Nostram: No kidding.

[11:57] Beyers Sellers: yes, on slcn later today, and written transcript available late tomorrow

[11:57] FelixAlbatross Nostram: I don't think the government likes that sort of thing. :)

[11:57] Precocious Destiny: IYan...I would think someone would be closer to that product

[11:57] Sequoia Hax: have federal agencies seen any ROI from virtual presence? (e.g. NASA for the panelist who's speaking now?)

[11:57] CeAire Decosta remembers the 10th anniversary of the Cape......

[11:57] Harper Beresford: has ANYONE seen ROI?

[11:57] Cindy Ecksol: :-)

[11:57] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Like American Soldier.

[11:57] Grace McDunnough: ROI has left the building ...

[11:57] IYan Writer: felix: I'm starting to think the same thing..

[11:58] Sequoia Hax: (haha Harper ;) but I'm wondering specifically about fed agencies who have diff needs/requirements)

[11:58] IYan Writer: ROI? in a govt agency? :D

[11:58] LifeFactory Writer: I have....sort of....in a small sense, in that I have been able to provide some real life work as a result just of the time I have spent here. And every moment I am in here, I consider an investment.

[11:58] Pip Torok: Question to panel: Will 'Federal Authorities' have problems when they realise

[11:58] LifeFactory Writer: And there are a number of people who I think are seeing "roi"

[11:58] Bjerkel Eerie: SL has gathered enough mass tht it is black hole sucking in all users time an money, who knows what will come out teh far side

[11:58] Bevan Whitfield: I agree very much with LIfeFactory.

[11:58] LifeFactory Writer: many to a much larger degree.

[11:59] Rik Riel: well said!

[11:59] LifeFactory Writer: Bevan....I am going to cede the floor to you! ; D

[11:59] Pip Torok: that the majority of avatars are in fact OUTSIDE the US (Im frim England BTW)

[11:59] Sequoia Hax: another question - what unexpected benefits have resulted from fed involvement in SL? (perhaps a project was undertaken for educational purposes but - some unexpected benefit?)

[11:59] CeAire Decosta: I just came here to escape all the commercials and ads on TV!!!! (giggle!)

[12:00] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Wait till the IRS starts charging "Sales Tax" for in world transactions. Not just when you convert to "real" curency.

[12:00] Hooligan Dollinger: Beyers - They've talked about a lot of initiatives but what are their TOP 3 objectives for the next 6-12 months? sounds like it's learning and branding.

[12:00] CeAire Decosta: eeeekk!!

[12:01] JamesT Benoir: Felix the repreive for online taxes was extended for a few more years

[12:01] FelixAlbatross Nostram: so far so good.

[12:01] FelixAlbatross Nostram: :)

[12:01] Cindy Ecksol: ARE states charging sales tax when lindens are converted???

[12:01] Bjerkel Eerie: they already do charbe taxes, if your using a credit card

[12:01] Cindy Ecksol: don't see how they can....

[12:01] Trixie Timtam: Well, look at the VAT tax..some countries are exempt...but not Americans

[12:01] Dewr Llewellyn: However, some states do have a "voluntary" sales tax on online transactions.

[12:01] FelixAlbatross Nostram: You're supposed to declare it, yes.

[12:01] CeAire Decosta: I wonder if Linden Labs had any clue whatsoever what would happen when they let Pandora out of its box.....

[12:01] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Most don't, I bet.

[12:02] Harper Beresford: there was a session on tax implications last season

[12:02] Trixie Timtam: They shouldn't tax anything unless it is taken out of SL...

[12:02] Fleep Tuque: yay standards!

[12:02] Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm...but if lindens are just an artifact of the platform, transactions in lindens aren't sales -- they're more like barter.

[12:03] Pip Torok: Agree Cindy ...

[12:03] FelixAlbatross Nostram: I don't think the Government would have a problem making the case otherwise.

[12:03] Trixie Timtam: I see it as scoring points, myself...why should we be taxed on that?

[12:03] Sequoia Hax: but you're right that fed involvement in virtual worlds will accelerate the conversation about virtual taxation...

[12:03] Sonja Strom: Taxes only come into effect when you exchange Lindens for RL currency.

[12:03] FelixAlbatross Nostram: So far...

[12:03] Cindy Ecksol: right, could be scoring points.....

[12:03] Rejin Tenjin: What might you wish for as a demonstration of value to your agency?

[12:03] CeAire Decosta: Since I'm not in a business - real money goes in....nothing comes out!!!

[12:04] Cindy Ecksol: but sonja, exchanging lindens for dollars is not something that most states tax...

[12:04] Tex Rhode: CeAire: that makes SL a hobby

[12:04] Malburns Writer: Feds need to be identifiable by tortoise avatars!!! lol

[12:04] CeAire Decosta: LOL!

[12:04] Sonja Strom: But the RL law says you are supposed to report income from online income.

[12:04] JamesT Benoir: *opens swis bank account*

[12:04] Rejin Tenjin: What kind of demonstration for your agency might serve to "open the doors" for consideration?

[12:04] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Or wolves in sheep's clothing.

[12:04] Rose Springvale: oh, but then we'd make them into shoes...

[12:04] Pip Torok: Why cant we SEE the speakers from where we are?

[12:05] Tex Rhode: Pip: where are you?

[12:05] Bjerkel Eerie: adn when yu deposit a check from the lindens of over 10,000 usd teh bnk rpeorts it to teh IRS

[12:05] Cindy Ecksol: but if lindens are not currency, but just an artifact or points you get for playing the game, is it really "income"?

[12:05] Pip Torok: Im in the amphitheatr in NC

[12:05] Rose Springvale: i got it Tex.. he's here

[12:06] Pip Torok: It would help if they were on the "stage" ...

[12:06] Harper Beresford: they did a whole discussion abuot taxation last season on metanomics. you can get a podcast on the website

[12:06] Sonja Strom: Cindy, it becomes income only when you exchange Lindens into RL currency. It is the same as with trading in poker chips in a casino.

[12:06] Bjerkel Eerie: Not till you move it out of the gamd Cindy

[12:06] Sequoia Hax: seems like the initiatives that have ben discussed is one-way (fed agencies --> constituents), anything that's the other way around or more of a dialogue (soliciting public opinion, public deliberation, etc)?

[12:06] Fleep Tuque: (SL is not a game, I say!)

[12:07] IYan Writer: pip: they are if you're on Muse Isle :)

[12:07] Chosen Raymaker: Pip: the sim they are in is full .. you are in a sim that broadcast from that sim

[12:07] Bevan Whitfield: Fine, report income but make sure you deduct time and investment.

[12:07] Harper Beresford: it is taxable when you exchange it

[12:07] Precocious Destiny: I agree...Fleep

[12:07] CeAire Decosta: I was thinking that Fleep...

[12:07] Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm....even then I bet that most people would not take out more than they pu tin, so you could call it a "refund"

[12:07] Pip Torok: ah ...

[12:07] Rose Springvale: Pip, go to your im from me :)

[12:07] Bevan Whitfield nods furiously in agreement with Fleep.

[12:07] Trixie Timtam: Here here, Bevan!

[12:07] Bjerkel Eerie: Fleep, Life is Gme

[12:07] Cindy Ecksol: or a "rebate" maybe...

[12:07] IYan Writer: (it's a game if they want to tax it ;) )

[12:07] Sequoia Hax: this comes up in EVERY panel - maybe we should have a panel dedicated to this, incorporating philosophers/sociologists Beyers ;)

[12:07] Fleep Tuque: laugh

[12:07] CeAire Decosta: LOL Bjerkel!

[12:07] Patroklus Murakami: i hope we can achieve that sequoia. i'd like to use SL to hold environmental 'focus groups'. i work for the UK environment department

[12:08] CeAire Decosta: I'd be there Patroklus!

[12:08] Sequoia Hax: Patroklus - really? i'm doing work with virtual worlds for purposes of env governance too ;)

[12:08] Patroklus Murakami: yay! networking in the backchat! perfect

[12:08] Sequoia Hax: i know the folks at SciLands are doing some interesting work with this too

[12:09] CeAire Decosta: Cool!

[12:09] Chosen Raymaker: work with what? what comes up in every panel?

[12:09] Patroklus Murakami: i'm in touch with davee commerce in scilands. the work they do is great

[12:09] Precocious Destiny: dod has been using this tech for years! Its not knew to them

[12:09] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Metrics... Code for spying.

[12:09] Rik Riel: I'm working with MacArthur to do some sustainable dev programs on the Teen Grid, BTW

[12:09] Typewriter Tackleberry: 3-D Interactive Wiki

[12:09] Sequoia Hax: whether SL or all of life is a game - this topic comes up in every panel

[12:09] CeAire Decosta: Chosen - some people still refer to SL as a "game" and it's not.

[12:09] Farqot Gustafson: Metrics - code for statistics and demographics

[12:10] Malburns Writer: Post-gaming communications technology

[12:10] Chosen Raymaker: ok, thanks

[12:10] Tex Rhode: SL is what you make it: some make money, most are just here

[12:10] Ancient Shriner: Linden Lab says themselves that SL is a platform

[12:10] CeAire Decosta: Just like in life Tex!

[12:10] Sequoia Hax: right but might be nice to just have this discussion explicitly

[12:10] Tex Rhode: yep

[12:11] CeAire Decosta: I don't think they'd reach a consensus.....

[12:11] Kianeira MacDiarmid: Tell my neighbor it's not just a game please so he will stop tormenting me.

[12:11] Dnali Anabuki: This was an amazing session..

[12:11] Bevan Whitfield: Yes - get this figured out once and for all.

[12:11] Troy McLuhan: Federal Consortium for Virtual Worlds: http://www.ndu.edu/irmc/fedconsortium.html

[12:12] Fleep Tuque: Thanks Troy!

[12:12] LifeFactory Writer: Ahh...Dnali you are here too. :)

[12:12] Dnali Anabuki: :)

[12:12] Bevan Whitfield: Dnali hi!

[12:12] Bjerkel Eerie: to those that feel life is a tragady, to those taht think a comody, adn those that hang out in

[12:12] Kianeira MacDiarmid: If we go to that website will they spy on us more?

[12:12] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Never trust the government or anyone over 30. lol

[12:12] CeAire Decosta: Just quit discussing it with him Kia!

[12:13] Rik Riel: Dont trust an avatar under 30 days old.

[12:13] CeAire Decosta: Agree to disagree!

[12:13] Fleep Tuque: Good point Aimee!

[12:13] Kianeira MacDiarmid: I muted him, CeAire. His trees are usurping 7 m of my property.

[12:13] Troy McLuhan: There was a Saskatchewan Government study in 1980 to see what personal computers could be used for. The answer: storing cooking recipies

[12:13] Dnali Anabuki: hey Bevan!

[12:13] Typewriter Tackleberry: AWESOME!

[12:13] LifeFactory Writer: Just list who is here: Cornell, several countries, IBM, Cisco, Sun, NBC and on and on.....Nasa... :D

[12:13] Zachh Cale: Oh thank god I'm 29

[12:13] Kianeira MacDiarmid: Hey Life!

[12:13] LifeFactory Writer: Seems the gaming stigma could be laid to rest fairly easily.

[12:13] Dnali Anabuki: agree@LIfe

[12:13] LifeFactory Writer: Hello, Kianeira! :)

[12:13] Kianeira MacDiarmid: I'm only 28 ;p

[12:13] FelixAlbatross Nostram: Yeah, get rid of poseballs.

[12:13] FelixAlbatross Nostram: lol

[12:13] Bevan Whitfield: It should be!

[12:13] Bjerkel Eerie: YAY AMIEE!!

[12:14] LifeFactory Writer: This is such a great program. Thanks Beyers and guests!@

[12:15] Rik Riel: good stuff. great program!

[12:15] Rik Riel: There will be a MacArthur Foundation-sponsored event on "Philanthropy and Virtual Worlds: Considering Civil Liberties" at 12p.m. PST on Monday, January 28. visit: http://tinyurl.com/34opnk for more info.

[12:15] Patroklus Murakami: i found this really interesting. well done for organising it

[12:15] Sonja Strom: very interesting!

[12:15] Rose Springvale: well done as always!

[12:15] Malburns Writer: Very interesting session - thank you all

[12:15] Rejin Tenjin: Very Interesting - Thanks beyers

[12:15] Bevan Whitfield: Wonderful!

[12:15] Sequoia Hax: thanks!

[12:15] LifeFactory Writer: clap clap clap!!!!

[12:15] Fleep Tuque: Thanks to all, good to chat with everyone. :)

[12:15] Rik Riel: great moderating!

[12:15] Precocious Destiny: very interesting! Thank you

[12:15] Farqot Gustafson: Thank you!

[12:15] Grace McDunnough: Cheers all

[12:16] Dnali Anabuki: hooray!

[12:16] Chosen Raymaker: Thank you Beyers

[12:16] Malburns Writer: Great guys

[12:16] LifeFactory Writer: Have a wonderful day, All!

[12:16] LifeFactory Writer: Great applause buttons!!!

[12:16] Bjorlyn Loon: great program, thanks to guest speakers and organizers!