Chat Transcript for 11/12/07

[11:05] Nite Zelmanov didn't realize Gigs was involved with SL banks
[11:06] Gigs Taggart: I blog a lot about economics in SL :)
[11:06] Nite Zelmanov: Ahh
[11:07] Bevan Whitfield: hi Onder!
[11:09] Tara5 Oh: hello from Malburns info hub!
[11:10] Troy McLuhan: Hello from Colonia Nova
[11:12] 57 Miles: Hello from Muse Isle!
[11:12] Monkey Canning: is this the eurovision song contest?
[11:12] Bevan Whitfield: hello from The Rookery Palms!
[11:15] Gigs Taggart: Monkey, I can sing if you'd like, but I doubt many people would like that :)
[11:20] Nite Zelmanov: Quite a disclaimer, haha
[11:20] IntLibber Brautigan: sounds like Luke
[11:20] Dizzy Banjo: indeed
[11:20] 57 Miles: Good job finance in SL isn't dodgy as hell eh?
[11:20] Xantha Oe: legal precedent is that b/c Linden is convertible to USD that these are securities
[11:20] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[11:20] 57 Miles: voice synth?
[11:20] Keenan Yengawa: Still it is a knee high fence, if a real lawyer wanted to go after them they could easily
[11:21] IntLibber Brautigan: ah educational process now, Luke again
[11:21] Nite Zelmanov can't tell, he is having linux+SL sound issues and everyone sounds choppy and strange
[11:21] Nany Kayo: test
[11:22] Malburns Writer: Good to hear someone concur is not a game
[11:22] Caliandris Pendragon: lol trust is a BIG issue of course - when people who are regulating the stock exchange are rip-off artists in world, how can anyone have faith that SLEX offers any security?
[11:23] Trixie Timtam: So...Ls aren't legal tender...why the ban on gambling, then?
[11:24] Ancient Shriner: There's another word for that . . . it will come to me I'm sure . . .
[11:25] Dizzy Banjo: personally i think its like any other civilisation... the economy, the environment and the social aspects are interconnected and cannot thrive without all 3 being healthy..
[11:25] Keenan Yengawa: Monkey, I do not believe Eurovision has a group yet, but my singing is worse that Gigs, so Haven't looked into it much.
[11:25] Jujudoll Dancer: dang Dizzy that was deep. Was that before or after coffee?
[11:25] Nite Zelmanov: Keenan, are you sure that it's worse than Gigs' singing?
[11:26] JenzZa Misfit: exactly .. Dizzy .. the trinity of living in harmony
[11:26] Malburns Writer: just like rl dizzy
[11:26] Dizzy Banjo: how that sustainability translates between virtual economies and non virtual economies is really interesting though
[11:26] Trixie Timtam: What is Ben Bernanke's avie named?
[11:26] Onder Skall: Anybody with questions for the panel, please IM me directly. Thanks!
[11:27] IntLibber Brautigan: I heard Bernankes avie is named Inflate Crashworthy
[11:28] IntLibber Brautigan: how does a bank not do loans?
[11:28] 57 Miles: I dont know guys, i havin't heard anything that inspires confidence so far from this guy
[11:28] IntLibber Brautigan: how can he pay interest if he's not profiting on loans
[11:28] Travis Ristow: LOL
[11:28] 57 Miles: quite the opposite in fact.
[11:28] Dizzy Banjo: btw yeh Mal..SL ... IS .. RL.. its a misnomer.. deliberate imho
[11:28] JenzZa Misfit: <-- agrees with 57
[11:28] Bevan Whitfield: oh 57
[11:28] JenzZa Misfit: <--- thinking : " Hey Vinnie .. wanna buy a watch ? ** trenchcoat
[11:29] Rose Springvale: agreed. and i don't see how he can feel exempt from state and federal regulations
[11:29] Nite Zelmanov: Oh, I'm behind ont he feed I think
[11:29] Peace McBride: another scam??
[11:29] Jujudoll Dancer: a wallet
[11:29] Jujudoll Dancer: did he just say WALLET?
[11:29] 57 Miles: generally i'd give a lot of room to folks but this just sounds all wrong
[11:29] Goedeke Messmer: Thank you for saying that out loud 57; I had a similar vibe.
[11:29] Rose Springvale: not a question of IF lawyers will jump that fence, but when.
[11:29] Trixie Timtam: Who dictates the value of different stocks? Seems arbitrary...
[11:29] Aurum Klees: where is the transparency?
[11:29] Dizzy Banjo actually stopped listening to him during it.. lol the backchat was pulling me in..
[11:29] Goldie2u Vanvleck: well what about those of us who need purses--do we need a different place??
[11:29] Caliandris Pendragon: RL regulation doesn't appear to apply to the financial instutions in SL
[11:30] Jujudoll Dancer: ok I type stupid so maybe that's a stupid question
[11:30] Keenan Yengawa: Yet Pendragan, RL regulation will soon spread if there are a few more Ginko's
[11:31] Caliandris Pendragon: I pursued someone who was ripping off creators all over SL, and he turned out to be on the regulation committee for SLEX... that undermined my confidence in it really
[11:31] Trixie Timtam: So...what guarantees your holdings will be compensated for when you are ready to cash out?
[11:31] Bevan Whitfield: I hear ya Juju, I hear ya
[11:31] Malburns Writer: maybe fashion makers should integraTE BANKS INTO PURSES FOR YOU
[11:31] Dizzy Banjo: lol mal
[11:31] Goldie2u Vanvleck: LOL good idea Malburns
[11:32] Dizzy Banjo: sub prime ? lol
[11:32] JenzZa Misfit: .. hey ! I started with nothing and still have most of it left
[11:32] Keenan Yengawa: Sub sub prime Dizzy
[11:32] Nite Zelmanov: Oooh! Hook me up with the buy me a sim plan
[11:32] Jujudoll Dancer: thta's why I'm a fashion model, not a profit model
[11:32] Travis Ristow: Excellent Idea Intlibber.
[11:35] Dizzy Banjo thinks all these organisations and really important ultimately to allow SL to grow organically..
[11:36] IYan Writer: i think the environment is still too unstable for things like stock exchanges
[11:36] Nite Zelmanov: Dizzy: Why, exactly? The only reason I can see is perhaps lowering the barrier to entry of an "RL Exchange"d to allow small businesses to flourish
[11:37] Nite Zelmanov: But that comes hand in hand with allowing fraud, basically - barriers to entry are there to prevent scams
[11:37] JenzZa Misfit: that IS a huge factor, IYan
[11:37] JenzZa Misfit: * wrapped around a pole so I dont get booted *
[11:38] Olando7 Decosta: still wondering why Arbitrage Wise does not show any rl info about himself
[11:38] 57 Miles: Meeeeeow!
[11:38] Keenan Yengawa: Too unstable and too little real world regulation, also how likely is LL to take action?
[11:38] Dizzy Banjo: yeh.. thats a good point Nite
[11:38] JenzZa Misfit: HMMMmmmmmmmm
[11:38] Hydra Shaftoe: same reason I dont
[11:38] Texas Timtam: loLOL 57
[11:39] Cinco Pizzicato: SL is a game... just like the stock market.
[11:39] Nite Zelmanov: I'm all for micro-exchanges, frankly, but you still need credit/identity verification or it's a joke
[11:39] Jujudoll Dancer: ok that makes no sense to me at all
[11:39] JimmyJet Fossett: Based on Ginsu's posture last week, I kind of doubt LL doing this.
[11:39] Olando7 Decosta: exactly
[11:39] Bevan Whitfield: oh really?
[11:39] Jujudoll Dancer: if LL is refunding for the deeds of scammers, why wouldn't more scammers take advantage of that?
[11:39] IYan Writer: nite: agreed
[11:40] Keenan Yengawa: concur
[11:40] Nite Zelmanov: Maybe they are refunding it out of the offender's account
[11:40] IntLibber Brautigan: yes
[11:40] IntLibber Brautigan: I'm not sure of the facts
[11:40] IntLibber Brautigan: if they repoed his account
[11:40] IntLibber Brautigan: they may be redistributing the funds
[11:40] Tex Rhode: SL is the wild west !
[11:40] Bevan Whitfield: excellent then
[11:40] Jujudoll Dancer: I would have added that as a disclaimer then
[11:41] IntLibber Brautigan: I can only say what I've heard
[11:41] Dizzy Banjo: well its difficult to see how that would hurt LL.. they could just refund by printing some extra money..
[11:41] JenzZa Misfit: oooOooo !
[11:42] Dizzy Banjo: lol
[11:42] Nite Zelmanov: Dizzy: And you dion't see how that could hurt?
[11:42] IntLibber Brautigan: thats not true
[11:42] JenzZa Misfit: gold = L$ scenario
[11:42] IntLibber Brautigan: there ahve been several transfers of ownership of companies
[11:42] IYan Writer: how many prims in a gold bar?
[11:42] Bevan Whitfield: tsk, tsk
[11:42] Malburns Writer: yes - linden "print on demand" kinda knocks some of this flat
[11:43] Bevan Whitfield: lol IYan
[11:43] Dizzy Banjo: yeh of course it would.. but dont they do that regularly anyway ? <-- just playing devils advocate
[11:43] JenzZa Misfit: wait .... L$ is an " offering "
[11:43] Goldie2u Vanvleck: perhaps they use the funds the double charge folks who accept lindens purchased with stolen credit cards-kinda like a victims fund
[11:48] Alanagh Recreant: ohhh that is so true...trust relationships
[11:48] Nite Zelmanov: LOL! It's pretty weird, but at least it's not socialism!
[11:49] Alanagh Recreant: trust amd consequence
[11:49] Dizzy Banjo cant imagine that precident being set... would open floodgates
[11:49] Nite Zelmanov: Gigs will give us an Amen on that, I'm sure ;)
[11:49] LifeFactory Writer: I would like clarification on what he meant by, "One can only establish trust if one has something to lose."
[11:49] Monkey Canning: halllerjulia
[11:49] Gigs Taggart: whassat?
[11:50] Alanagh Recreant: yes LifeFactory
[11:50] Aurum Klees: new market would be create insurance for financial fraud
[11:50] Nite Zelmanov: Life: That's true. Otherwise what are you entrusting to the other party?
[11:50] Monkey Canning: a dyslexic christian
[11:50] LifeFactory Writer: Must admit, that equation is not self-evident.
[11:50] Trixie Timtam: Play at your own risk.
[11:50] Tex Rhode: Trust makes things go, consequences keeps things on track. Building trust and implementing consequences in SL are both a problem.
[11:50] Cinco Pizzicato: power symmetry.
[11:50] Monkey Canning: i already offer insurance to my investors
[11:50] Media Hax: h
[11:51] Gigs Taggart: hrm, I dropped off
[11:51] Monkey Canning: hold up we all crashed lol
[11:51] Texas Timtam: LOL
[11:51] 57 Miles: I heard a bunch of talk about Luke Connell earlier. Where is he? What happened there?
[11:52] LifeFactory Writer: Nite: that doesn't sound like trust, that sounds like the height of mistrust; essenitally holding someone hostage rather than holding them to their "word."
[11:52] Nite Zelmanov: I think I understood that some suspected he was on the stage
[11:52] Alanagh Recreant: there you go
[11:52] Alanagh Recreant: a solution from Africa ;)
[11:52] 57 Miles: yes, one of them sounds very much like him. but did something happen with his company or somethign?
[11:52] Nite Zelmanov: Life: Oh, I didn't mean that the other party has something to lose! I meant that YOU need to have something to lose in order for you to be able to trust someone with it
[11:53] Rose Springvale: implication was that his company went under and is being considered for foreclosuer action 57
[11:53] Monkey Canning: oh that makes sense
[11:53] Nite Zelmanov: Life: In ideal trust, certainly the other person is in no way bound to you - you simply trust them
[11:53] Nite Zelmanov: In business, that's actually a pretty bad idea, though ;)
[11:53] Rose Springvale: yes, somalia.. world financial leader
[11:53] Dizzy Banjo: hmm interesting 57
[11:53] LifeFactory Writer: Nite: understood now. ty.
[11:53] IYan Writer: taking it a bit too seriously, methinks
[11:53] JenzZa Misfit: ...................................
[11:53] Keenan Yengawa: YES
[11:54] LifeFactory Writer: I think I prefer contracts and the law to "trust" in business dealings.
[11:54] IYan Writer: whoh, that msg was from 10 min ago
[11:54] Keenan Yengawa: Luke defaulted (it is claimed) on a 2 million linden bond from Midas Bank, when they asked him about it he delisted their stock.
[11:54] IYan Writer: life: still... would you sign a contract with someone you don't trust?
[11:54] Julynn Lilliehook loves contracts.
[11:54] Nite Zelmanov can't wait for a click-trough licensing platform inside SL. So you can official "shake" on things. Lawyers will love it haha
[11:55] Gigs Taggart: Keenan, not just delisted, but canceled his debt in the process
[11:55] Bevan Whitfield: not even with a good lawyer!
[11:55] Julynn Lilliehook: Contract is the substitute for trust.
[11:55] Xantha Oe: should post the microcap exchange legal exemption on the website to validate the exchange, seems that legal issues have not been considered
[11:55] Rose Springvale: hehe...
[11:55] Cinco Pizzicato: you sign contracts *because* you don't trust.
[11:55] JenzZa Misfit: bam bam ! <-- gavel
[11:55] LifeFactory Writer: I would balk at signing a contract only if I lost my "trust" in the law. Perhaps I am still naive.
[11:55] Julynn Lilliehook: However, contracts are only as good as your willingness to enforce them.
[11:55] Nite Zelmanov: Cinco, Julynn: I disagree
[11:55] Media Hax: <<--- wonders if there is a lawyer around since we are talking about contracts???
[11:55] Jujudoll Dancer: haha nite, we do have notaries, but even with that, how much trust do you need?
[11:55] Keenan Yengawa: Ah, missed that part Gigs, thank you for clarifying.
[11:55] Nite Zelmanov: I sign contracts only with people I trust - it's more about making things aboundantly clear
[11:56] Alanagh Recreant: ...the reality is, the South African Reserve Bank has not approved an application to deal with Linden Lab after 5 months, so unless virtual worlds takes globalisation seriously and do more advocacy, it will remain an exclusive solution for a few select few
[11:56] Julynn Lilliehook: The contract is the law of your "deal".
[11:56] IYan Writer: cinco: disagree.. you sign them just in case, but I would never sign a contract with someone I didn't trust to keep up his part of the bargain
[11:56] Rose Springvale: waves to media
[11:56] JenzZa Misfit: <---- glares
[11:56] Julynn Lilliehook: It's based on a mutual understanding of the terms of your agreement.
[11:56] Rose Springvale: the best contracs never come out of the filing cabinet
[11:56] Nite Zelmanov: Iyan: Agreed
[11:56] Bevan Whitfield: if someone wants to mess you up from the beginning, they will, contract or not
[11:56] Media Hax: hehe...
[11:56] Rose Springvale: but they are the best because they deal with issues up front
[11:56] Monkey Canning: helllo MUM!
[11:56] Jujudoll Dancer: agreed Bevan
[11:56] Julynn Lilliehook is a lawyer in RL.
[11:57] Monkey Canning: AAV is incorporated
[11:57] Monkey Canning: AVC i mean
[11:57] Julynn Lilliehook thinks Rose is correct.
[11:57] JenzZa Misfit: but a contract has to have fair equity for both parties true ? how about this contract :: SL TOS !!! * click to agree & connect *
[11:57] Cinco Pizzicato: if you sign a contract, it means you don't trust them to follow through, and will sic your lawyers on them.
[11:57] JenzZa Misfit: <----- mutes herself
[11:57] Rose Springvale: kindred spirit Julynn
[11:57] Cinco Pizzicato: an oral arrangement is a contract, too. :-)
[11:58] Jujudoll Dancer: lmao JenzZa
[11:58] Gigs Taggart: jenz contracts of adhesion are less binding
[11:58] Bevan Whitfield: ohhhh the beloved SL TOS
[11:58] Julynn Lilliehook: No...it is the written form of your mutual understanding. This way both sides know the rules.
[11:58] JenzZa Misfit: lol Gigs
[11:58] JenzZa Misfit: yahhh
[11:58] Julynn Lilliehook: Ever palyed Scrabble and disagrred about the rules? You look at the rule book.. A contract is your rulebook.
[11:58] Gigs Taggart: ask jelynn, she's the lawyer
[11:59] JenzZa Misfit: macroeconomics & cheese
[11:59] JenzZa Misfit: lol
[11:59] Gigs Taggart: contracts of adhesion are already half the way to being inconscionable :)
[11:59] Bevan Whitfield: oh bring it on Beyers!
[11:59] Nite Zelmanov: Cinco: I sign contracts so that there is a clear record for us to refer to in order to understand rights and responsibilities. Lawyers rarely come into it, and it's no substitute for trust
[11:59] Monkey Canning: anyone else got the jitters?
[11:59] Nite Zelmanov: Why on earth would you do business with peopleyou don't trust?
[11:59] Nyla Cheeky: then why do they post economic statistics on their site?
[11:59] Monkey Canning: ok enough about contracts already
[11:59] Julynn Lilliehook agrees with Nite
[11:59] Alanagh Recreant: well... if it takes my REAL money, it is real to me
[12:00] Julynn Lilliehook: I think contracts are needed in SL...
[12:00] Alanagh Recreant: lol
[12:00] Goedeke Messmer: If you have to fall back to the contract, you have already lost in business.
[12:00] Bevan Whitfield agrees with Nite
[12:00] Goldie2u Vanvleck: no kidding lol
[12:00] Julynn Lilliehook: With even the choice of law decided and agreed upon.
[12:00] Julynn Lilliehook: Marriage is a contract.
[12:00] Bevan Whitfield: yes excellent Goedeke
[12:00] Nite Zelmanov: Is the $L still a "license to use a feature"?
[12:00] JenzZa Misfit: here we go ::: its a product ... we are consumers ..and they are " offerings "
[12:01] Julynn Lilliehook: Most of life is a contract.
[12:01] Rose Springvale: yes Julynn.. and you do business with people you dont' trust, because they have something you want. Which is why everyone clicks "agree" to TOs
[12:01] Groove Market: Well said gigs.
[12:01] Monkey Canning: awwww : (
[12:01] Jujudoll Dancer: which is why I am single Julynn *whew*
[12:01] Julynn Lilliehook: Contract = the exchange of promises, with meeting of the minds, and some form of "consideration", i.e. money.
[12:01] Monkey Canning: I agree with whoever is speaking
[12:01] Julynn Lilliehook: Me too! I never married..heheh
[12:02] Goldie2u Vanvleck: a very good point about the views of ginsu
[12:02] Bevan Whitfield: lol Juju
[12:02] Goldie2u Vanvleck: me too Monkey
[12:02] Julynn Lilliehook: Why buy the bull when you can get the...ooops wrong saying
[12:02] Malburns Writer: good point indeed
[12:03] Bevan Whitfield: yes, last week's was very interesting - he got a lot of good questions fired at him by Beyers and the group
[12:03] Jujudoll Dancer: hahaaa
[12:03] Monkey Canning: well said : 0
[12:03] IYan Writer: i agree wih david
[12:03] Tara5 Oh: LL can't back a currency!!!!!! international law does not allow that!
[12:03] Xantha Oe: currency problems could trigger a fast exit from SL
[12:03] Dizzy Banjo: lol nice
[12:03] Monkey Canning: goooo intlibber : )
[12:03] Peace McBride: :)
[12:03] Malburns Writer: Linbdens as 70s decaying government model - like it!
[12:03] Goldie2u Vanvleck: its sad that LL feels they must cover their butts so much that they'd have to go so far over to the "its a game' theory
[12:03] JenzZa Misfit: this is NOT a game, Dang it ! * pass the dice **
[12:03] Onder Skall: oooh there's a phrase... "100% As Fake"
[12:03] Jujudoll Dancer: I'm having a hard time imagining the Linden dollar being taken seriously when there is no legal backing for it
[12:03] 57 Miles: Agrees with Intibber 100%
[12:03] Bevan Whitfield applauds Int!!!!!!
[12:04] Tara5 Oh: Many countries would not allow SL if LL backed a currency!
[12:04] Media Hax: Marriage is fantastic... In fact, I've done it 4 times...
[12:04] Travis Ristow: Yayyy Intlibber
[12:04] Monkey Canning: we love you inltlibber : )
[12:04] Tara5 Oh: ONLY govtments can back currencies
[12:04] Jujudoll Dancer: hahaa Media
[12:04] 57 Miles: Claps!!!!!!!!
[12:04] Jujudoll Dancer: hehe
[12:04] 57 Miles: Applause!
[12:04] IYan Writer: jujudoll: there is no backing for $, too
[12:04] Dizzy Banjo: good point tara
[12:04] Gigs Taggart: juju, there's no legal backing for any fiat currency
[12:04] 57 Miles: Hooray!
[12:04] IYan Writer: ever since the fed went off gold
[12:04] Sande Enoch: So, a currency is like a fairy, it's real if you believe hard enough in it?
[12:04] Goldie2u Vanvleck: go Int!
[12:04] Monkey Canning: and the crowd goes while : )
[12:04] Bevan Whitfield swoons
[12:04] Gigs Taggart: sande, actually, yeah
[12:04] JenzZa Misfit: SPEAK THE TRUTH !!!
[12:04] Julynn Lilliehook: What about Green Stamps and coupons?
[12:04] Travis Ristow: Go Int...Go Int... !!
[12:05] Tara5 Oh: it really is ridiculous to think that LL will back a currency
[12:05] Nite Zelmanov: 100% as fake as US$ !!
[12:05] Nite Zelmanov: lol