Chat Transcript for 111207 Part 2

[12:05] Alanagh Recreant smiles at Tara5.... thus, we pay for a 'service' when we give LL money, right?
[12:05] Gigs Taggart: Ithaca dollars are a local currency backed by labor :)
[12:05] Malburns Writer: Zee Linden has said Linden will have variable international exchange rates soon - but how like this is anyone;'s guess
[12:05] Goldie2u Vanvleck: its about time someone said what it really is instead of hiding behind hte "its a game" copout!
[12:05] Jujudoll Dancer: Iyan that is true to an extent, as we are no longer back by gold, but the Dollar has been astablished as being unbacked and no one is disputing that fact
[12:05] Nite Zelmanov: Malburns, really?
[12:05] Nite Zelmanov: Gigs: About the only rational thing to back money with, I think
[12:05] JenzZa Misfit: BAG OPEN ::::CATS EVERYWHERE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FILM @ 11 !!!!!
[12:05] Malburns Writer: yes - gave talk inworld about 10 days ago
[12:06] Bevan Whitfield: yep - Zee said that, it will be VERY interesting to follow
[12:06] IYan Writer: jujudoll: sure.. fiat money always replaces less fiat money
[12:06] Julynn Lilliehook: IF this was the early 90s...we could have just used the peso...
[12:06] 57 Miles: Saying it's a game, and playing that card, makes you sound like **crooks**
[12:06] Travis Ristow: LMAO Jenza
[12:06] Alanagh Recreant: hehe
[12:06] Goldie2u Vanvleck: LOL jenZa!
[12:06] Bevan Whitfield: lol JenzZa!
[12:06] Dizzy Banjo: lol what a smackdown..
[12:06] IYan Writer: forgot what the law is called ;)
[12:06] Goedeke Messmer: The money becomes real once you draw it from L$s.... nobody is making their "real living" without conversion. Once L$s can be transferred for real objects (which there is some, but not much leakage) I think they can wear the figleaf successfully.
[12:06] JenzZa Misfit: lol
[12:06] 57 Miles: Somebody needed to make a strong statement!
[12:06] Dizzy Banjo: new grid arch!
[12:06] Julynn Lilliehook: Pesos were so sheap you could live for free on Mexico.
[12:06] JenzZa Misfit: LOL !!!!!! i love this planet !
[12:06] Travis Ristow: Way to go Int! Perfect!
[12:06] Dizzy Banjo: what do they think about that ?!!
[12:06] Monkey Canning: set intlibber on him
[12:06] Arun Saenz: How would one define the difference between RL, SL and "A Game"?
[12:06] JenzZa Misfit: omg
[12:07] Alanagh Recreant: ...try taking money OUT into another country that does not recognise the 'currency'
[12:07] Bevan Whitfield: ohhh nooo
[12:07] Alanagh Recreant: ;)
[12:07] Goldie2u Vanvleck: i agree 57--about time someone got off the "don't want to go against the crowd" and spoke out!
[12:07] Jujudoll Dancer: pesos are still cheap if you live in NYC
[12:07] Rose Springvale: excellent presentation... Int is my new hero!
[12:07] Monkey Canning: ESN is proud to be on the ACE exchange!
[12:07] Goedeke Messmer: Doh, Once = Until.
[12:07] Nite Zelmanov: Yeah! LL better figure this out
[12:07] Alanagh Recreant: very very nice, yes
[12:07] IYan Writer: juju: even cheaper if you live in canada ;)
[12:07] Bevan Whitfield: ohh juju
[12:07] Nite Zelmanov: by 57's definition LL looks like crooks too
[12:07] Julynn Lilliehook: That's why it's best to trade in sex....accepted everywhere
[12:07] 57 Miles: THe third one is theft
[12:07] Jujudoll Dancer: lmao Julynn
[12:07] Dizzy Banjo: surely we need to discuss the potential of the new grid architecture and how all of that could affect things like land value ? IP ? how that translates into the economy ?
[12:08] Travis Ristow: RIS is on ace!!!
[12:08] Bevan Whitfield: omg you guys
[12:08] Gigs Taggart: sex would be a good backing for currency
[12:08] Nite Zelmanov: Julynn: A currency backed by sex.... interesting idea
[12:08] Jujudoll Dancer: haha
[12:08] Tex Rhode: is anyone else hearing the echo now?
[12:08] JenzZa Misfit: THIS is interesting
[12:08] Bevan Whitfield hates the word game
[12:08] JenzZa Misfit: Beyers Sellers : Unplugged !
[12:08] Gigs Taggart: Dizzy sounds like a good future panel.
[12:08] Malburns Writer: Hah Julynn
[12:08] Dizzy Banjo: what are their continencies as financial institutions for those possibilities ?
[12:08] Tex Rhode: oops, wrong window.. sorry
[12:08] Rose Springvale: ::perk::
[12:08] Jujudoll Dancer: I would be so rich! pesos and sex!
[12:08] Aurum Klees: its called human ecology
[12:08] Alanagh Recreant: or sex is the currency?? lol j/k
[12:08] Malburns Writer: Fish and frogs???
[12:08] Goldie2u Vanvleck: LOL so a rick person would have to run around saying "oh my aching back!" LMAO
[12:08] Julynn Lilliehook: I can't hear an f-ing this as usual..No one casre about satellite users
[12:08] Jujudoll Dancer: OMG HAHAA
[12:08] Goldie2u Vanvleck: or a rich person i mean
[12:09] Julynn Lilliehook: Indeed...me too.
[12:09] Jujudoll Dancer: toy?
[12:09] Jujudoll Dancer: wallet?
[12:09] Bevan Whitfield: omg!!!
[12:09] Jujudoll Dancer: fish and frogs?
[12:09] Julynn Lilliehook: I have so much to give....well, a bit short on pesos atm!
[12:09] Media Hax: <<---- hated satelitte users since sputnik... dam commies....
[12:09] Goldie2u Vanvleck: LOL
[12:09] Judsonian Mornington: sex toy economy?
[12:09] Monkey Canning: LOL
[12:09] Alanagh Recreant: lol
[12:09] Bevan Whitfield: toy????
[12:09] Jujudoll Dancer: sex and pesos?
[12:09] Jujudoll Dancer: lindens?
[12:09] Monkey Canning: come buy my sex frog toys : )
[12:09] Bevan Whitfield: with wallets, fish and frogs
[12:09] Bevan Whitfield: there ya go
[12:09] 57 Miles: sheesh, you guys and the sex!
[12:09] Katherine Watson: poses?
[12:10] Julynn Lilliehook: wasn't that a band..The Sex Pesos?
[12:10] 57 Miles: you'd think there wasnt enough of it in SL :)
[12:10] Goldie2u Vanvleck: no prim regulations
[12:10] Arun Saenz: Websters Unabriged Dictionary shows 13 definitions for "game" then noun
[12:10] Dizzy Banjo thinks its grease.. its in between the cogs.. and necessary for lots of other things to function in the society
[12:10] Jujudoll Dancer: I have yet to make enough lindens to actually buy a toy, wallet, fish or a frog
[12:10] Judsonian Mornington: cant buy love...
[12:10] Arun Saenz: the noun*
[12:10] Jujudoll Dancer: love??
[12:10] Jujudoll Dancer: ugh
[12:10] Malburns Writer: Hah - Rotten returns to stage in Lonhdon tonight
[12:10] 57 Miles: moeny cant buy me love
[12:10] 57 Miles: la la la...
[12:10] Bevan Whitfield: yes and shoes!!!
[12:10] JenzZa Misfit: Lets discuss this at Muse Isle on Voice !! Ill get the clown horns !!
[12:10] Keenan Yengawa: Beyers has totally lost me...
[12:10] Jujudoll Dancer: yay SLCN !!!!
[12:10] Julynn Lilliehook: grease this..Dizzy!
[12:10] JenzZa Misfit: lol
[12:10] Jujudoll Dancer: lol
[12:11] 57 Miles: Thanks everyone!
[12:11] 57 Miles: Great session
[12:11] Dizzy Banjo: thanks everyone nice session :)
[12:11] Nany Kayo: thanks!
[12:11] 57 Miles: Thanks Rob, Onder, Guests!
[12:11] Groove Market: can we play poker with this toy money? ;)
[12:11] Monkey Canning: yeah that was great thanks
[12:11] Trixie Timtam: TYVM!!!
[12:11] Darleez DeCuir: Thank you all!
[12:11] Alanagh Recreant: Thanks@
[12:11] Bevan Whitfield: goood bye Prof Rob!!!!
[12:11] Nite Zelmanov: WTF is he talking about?
[12:11] Malburns Writer: Yep - thanks all
[12:11] Steve WeAreHere: Thanks all
[12:11] Nyla Cheeky: Claps
[12:11] Arun Saenz: Thanks everyone on panel and Metanomics and Muse and JenzZa
[12:11] IYan Writer: very interesting, nice change from Product Linden
[12:11] Nyla Cheeky: hehe
[12:11] Jujudoll Dancer: thank you!!!!
[12:11] Groove Market: Thanks Beyters/onder.
[12:11] Bevan Whitfield: always the best show in town!!!!
[12:11] Jujudoll Dancer: wonderful show!
[12:11] Judsonian Mornington: great conversation
[12:11] Nite Zelmanov: Toyconomies
[12:12] Goedeke Messmer: Recently there was a survey that shows that sex is actually much more a niche aspect than I think most assumed (with over half claiming to have not particpated at all). I think the concept of "toy economy" is a useful construct.
[12:12] Julynn Lilliehook: We always end up like kids, don't we withthe sounds?
[12:12] Julynn Lilliehook: Hmmm...I'd like to know more about thet
[12:12] IntLibber Brautigan: Goe, problem is most of the internet economy is about sex
[12:12] Xantha Oe: i like 'early-stage' economy better
[12:14] Goedeke Messmer: I'm not convinced that we can declare L$ "real money" and simply claim that by doing so it magically becomes "real money". Casino chips are a toy economy that converts readily to real money, but the firewall at the step of "converting" the money back and forth remains in place.
[12:14] Malburns Writer: Plenty of toy shops in other metaverses
[12:14] IntLibber Brautigan: the market decides what is money and what isn't
[12:14] IntLibber Brautigan: thats the nature the market collapse of currencies
[12:14] Xantha Oe: Intlibber - are you thinking of encouraging a third-party audit function like in RL?
[12:14] Gigs Taggart: goedeke, casino chips are still treated as money
[12:14] Julynn Lilliehook: But a chip is marked with a dollar value...
[12:15] Jujudoll Dancer: if that's the case then sex is money
[12:15] Julynn Lilliehook: Ls are supposed to change
[12:15] Gigs Taggart: go buy some casino chips on your credit card and they'll treat it as a cash advance
[12:15] IntLibber Brautigan: actually we are implementing a profit/loss reporting system on our exchange in a few eeks
[12:15] Julynn Lilliehook: I better start charging then..Juju
[12:15] Goedeke Messmer: Yes... but the profits/loss are not realized until you cash out.
[12:15] Xantha Oe: the independent third-party audit instills more trust
[12:15] IntLibber Brautigan: yes
[12:15] Goedeke Messmer: That is a deliberate feature of the toy economy in a casino.
[12:15] Temporal Mitra: casino chips are not treated as real money...as they do not become taxable until they are convered back into real money
[12:16] Jujudoll Dancer: ok I would be interested in having a look at that analysis
[12:16] Arun Saenz: Geodeke.... that is how RL stock markets work too!
[12:16] Goedeke Messmer: L$ seem to so far work very much that way now.
[12:16] Jujudoll Dancer: so casino chips = wallet without interest?
[12:16] Arun Saenz: And also how RL banks work too
[12:16] Julynn Lilliehook: Don't start talking about taxes!
[12:16] Goedeke Messmer: No, you have to realize some transactions in stocks or banks.
[12:16] Monkey Canning: I am bringing out a new line of fish and frog wallets... 50l each.. if u want one im me
[12:17] Jujudoll Dancer: I can't talk about taxes, I ran out of coffee
[12:17] Julynn Lilliehook: Oh, but I think hookers accept casino chips...tax loophole ....pun intended
[12:17] Temporal Mitra: as a matter of fact, there is a shadow economy in both vegas and atlantic city, where many people trade goods and services for casino chips, instead of cash so that their purchases are non taxable
[12:17] Goldie2u Vanvleck: dang it where are the purses monkey? can we say discrimination LOL
[12:17] Arun Saenz: My view is that there is no real dividing line between RL, SL and game.... except from the perspective of the participant in any of those
[12:18] Julynn Lilliehook: If you give a hooker a $50 chip for a $40 bj, is the extra ten a tip?
[12:19] Jujudoll Dancer: and is that tip taxable ? or are hookers still not paying taxes?
[12:19] Julynn Lilliehook: Or do you get a $60 bj for only a $50 chip?
[12:19] Rose Springvale: Monkey, i love toys :)
[12:19] Rose Springvale: and is that tip reportable???
[12:19] Goedeke Messmer: I have been paid for work in SL in L$, but until I take that money out into US$, it remains "shadow". As a company owner, I simply transfer it out before the end of the tax year to ensure a clean separation as far as taxes go, but right now I can't "spend" my L$ on most real world goods. I think that is the break point: once I can spend them directly, the fig leaf of "toy economy" goes away.
[12:19] Malburns Writer: Nah - the tip's in ... never mind!
[12:19] Jujudoll Dancer: tips are always reportable
[12:20] Rose Springvale: hehe.
[12:20] Jujudoll Dancer: Goedeke does paypal deal in nickels? because I think I have about that much in my account
[12:20] Julynn Lilliehook: Why take the Ls out? Just by all those mod ffashion in SL!
[12:21] Goedeke Messmer: I earned more than I could spend on SL toys, so I cashed out for the general usability. :)
[12:22] Rose Springvale: one interesting thing
[12:22] Julynn Lilliehook: You need some slaves ans stuff then
[12:22] Rose Springvale: last i looked.. you still couldn't use L's to buy sims
[12:22] Malburns Writer: It would help if ,lindens could be spent inworld on tangible assets like land and fees - save on RL input
[12:23] Rose Springvale: which seems vry odd to me. YES mal, i agree
[12:23] Goedeke Messmer: Malburns: the reason you *can't* spend on land and fees is the preserve the fig leaf.
[12:24] Goedeke Messmer: That would be a *huge* hole in the L$ as a toy economy if you could spend on such a "real world" expense as server hosting or account fees.
[12:24] Gigs Taggart: being able to spend it on land fees would change nothing
[12:24] Gigs Taggart: ll would just sell that much more at market to feed the demand
[12:25] Malburns Writer: heck - even monopoly money can buy property (lol)
[12:25] Goedeke Messmer: The demand side isn't the point.
[12:25] Goedeke Messmer: The point is the legal stance on the use of L$ as a token instead of a currency.
[12:25] Gigs Taggart: you can't just ignore it
[12:25] Gigs Taggart: there is no legal stance
[12:25] Gigs Taggart: it's bs
[12:26] Goedeke Messmer: Does that mean WoW plat is "real" as well in your view?
[12:26] Malburns Writer: I think the future will see electronic currencies with rl exchange variants
[12:26] Gigs Taggart: does the company sell platinum and provide a market to trade it?
[12:27] Malburns Writer: metaverse currencies should think in that direction
[12:27] Goedeke Messmer: Not directly, but it is easily accomplished.
[12:27] Cinco Pizzicato: yes.
[12:27] Julynn Lilliehook takes her best legal stance.
[12:27] Goedeke Messmer: And Everquest actually does have such markets.
[12:27] Gigs Taggart: geodeke well that's all the difference
[12:27] Goedeke Messmer: Convertability? All virtual currencies are convertable at this time.
[12:27] Gigs Taggart: L$ buys real copyright licenses from copyright creators, it doesn't just "unlock" some "item" that was already on your hard disk
[12:28] Rose Springvale: i dunno, i can buy wow gold at a hundred places
[12:28] Goedeke Messmer: Some without official sanction, but I"m not sure how the stance of "official" conversion is valuable.
[12:29] Goedeke Messmer: That license is (in the view given by Ginsu) completely revocable at whim.
[12:29] Gigs Taggart: it isn't really
[12:29] Flix Saiman: the only MMO i have ever heard of that sanctions selling of intelectual property is SL
[12:29] Cinco Pizzicato: When prisoners buy things with cigarettes, they are using cigarettes as currency. Is prison a game?
[12:29] Goedeke Messmer: It isn't?
[12:29] Goedeke Messmer: I used to run MUDs, and I shut down down at whim; even after accepting donations for "in world" items.
[12:30] Flix Saiman: Everquest, SWG, WOW all state in their TOS that it is against the law to sell virutal goods from thier products and will ban you if they find out
[12:30] Goedeke Messmer: How isn't it revocable at whim (other than practially, due to the angry hordes and lost customers?)
[12:30] Flix Saiman: I was one of the first people selling virtual goods .. in Everquest i was making 100,000 plat a week and selling it.. I was one of the first Grandmaster Tailors on any server so i was in very high demand
[12:31] Malburns Writer: Creations belomng to creators, not the person that sells them the tools to create
[12:31] Flix Saiman: the way around it legally is in a MMO your not selling goods your selling the time it took to aquire said goods.. sure its a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo but to get around the TOS thats how you did it
[12:32] Flix Saiman: now in SL they have given us the oppertnity to sell our virtually created items and to set up our own copywrite systems with permissions (sure they dont work all the time) but its a huge step forward for MMO selling in virtual to real world money
[12:33] Goedeke Messmer: I'm not convinced that the legality or illegality of the conversion of virtual currency really matters much as far as the avoidance of becoming considered real currency. I'm not even convinced that they won't be considered "real" down the road, but at the moment the legal attitude appears to be that the conversion to a real world currency is the point at which gains are realized.
[12:33] Cinco Pizzicato: in other words: once it's taxable.
[12:34] Goedeke Messmer: The Lindens have a strong reason to avoid allowing them to be directly taxed.
[12:34] Flix Saiman: if your talking about legally ie.. to be taxed you are supposed to report any real income you recieve (as a professional gambler this is about the same thing)
[12:34] Goedeke Messmer: Reguation and overhead nightmare.
[12:34] Goedeke Messmer: Right, but professional gamblers get the tax form at the time of cashouts (although they are sometimes required to cash out when they win big by the casino).
[12:35] Flix Saiman: in other words.. if you do online trading, or say online gambling or even SL.. and you gain an income you are supposed to report that money to the IRS (or whatever legal entity its supposed to be from)
[12:35] Flix Saiman: ok no goed.. you only have to report if you try and cash out more than 10,000 USD a day.. lower than that and you can cash out all day long
[12:36] Goedeke Messmer: But even the "not tax form" cash outs are supposed to be entered as "income" and "expense".
[12:36] Flix Saiman: but thats the glitch.. if you exceed your daily limit of spending and get audtited (sp?) you have to prove how you aquired an brand new car and a few trips
[12:36] Cinco Pizzicato: but I think goedke is saying that if it can't be considered a gain, then it's not really currency. thus, a useful definition of currency might be: 'It's taxable."
[12:36] Flix Saiman: now if your worried about taxes in SL income
[12:37] Goedeke Messmer: Well, perhaps "it's taxable" is a bad definition of a currency, but people probably are more concerned about taxability than the "definition" of what hey have.
[12:37] Malburns Writer: Image someone like PayPal converted all funds held in accounts to a notional virtual currency - i9t would be converted back on withdrawl and taxed in RL. But could not a currency like that be linked to metaverse currencies too? (Not my expertise here)(
[12:37] Flix Saiman: you need to be able to show a loss if you do that and are breaking even (hypothetically) then you can end up paying no taxes
[12:37] Cinco Pizzicato: zactly, goedeke.
[12:38] Goedeke Messmer: (I.e., the man on the street could care less if the things they call "money" are "currency" or "tokens". But he cares a *lot* about if the tax man want's his pound of flesh).
[12:38] Flix Saiman: you cant tax somthing like that unless they institute some type of legal tax but on the internet the chances of somthing like that are very remote because nobody would pay.. because you would have everybody's fingers in the pie
[12:38] Goedeke Messmer: Anyway, as a business owner I find it useful to cash out before the end of the tax year. It makes a nice clean "record" of the state of my L$ account.
[12:39] Goedeke Messmer: The flux within the account during the year is "invisible" as far as taxes go by doing that, but I still pay my pound of flesh.
[12:39] Flix Saiman: basically i wouldnt worry about it in SL unless your making more than 10,000 USD a year.. if you are you might want to talk to a tax lawyer about ramifications of creating an LLC and showing a profit/loss per annual year to offset the taxes
[12:39] Goedeke Messmer: I have talked with a tax laywer, and what I'm doing was pretty much the suggestion to keep out of the grey area.
[12:40] Flix Saiman: exactly.. reporting it is always the best option.. as far as if your trying to be 100% legal
[12:40] Goedeke Messmer: Not really a suggestion for others, but I like my tax situation to remain very crisp. The amusement of flustered tax auditors is worth the minor delta in cash.
[12:41] Flix Saiman: as for me.. I make less than 10k a year in SL atm.. that might change next year.. but currently its not worth it to me to worry about funds
[12:42] Flix Saiman: now in everquest i was making around 3,000 USD a month.. mind you i was alot younger and never reported it.. but I did get audited and when the IRS agent asked me about it i told him i got it from video games.. he laughted and asked me how much i lied and told him about 6,000 total .. (truth was more like 25k) .. but ya it cancome back an bite you
[12:43] Goedeke Messmer: Right, but in all of these scenarios, there was a cashing out to a standard currency.
[12:43] Flix Saiman: its a strange new world as far as legal ramifications of taxes, laws, privicy .. and as the 3d meta verse expands it will be really intersting how laws are developed to do things
[12:43] Flix Saiman: yes .. but its hard to tell most times unless they sypena records of where all the money was coming in from.. ie.. lets say your getting it all into paypal.. how do they know its from that and not pay pal sales or whatnot..
[12:44] Goedeke Messmer: Personally, I think the governments will catch wind of the lost opprotunity and do everything in their power to remove the fig leaf of tokens vs currency and try to tax it; they already are aggressive about this in the trade of services and currency "exchanges".
[12:44] Flix Saiman: oh i guarntee it goedeke.. but it wont happen in stuff like SL..
[12:44] Monkey Canning: lol famous last words
[12:44] Flix Saiman: here is what is going to happen.. atm there is somthing in the US called the interent wired act which prevents you from gambling on the internt
[12:45] Goedeke Messmer: Yes, the cause of much wailing and gnashing of teeth in SL :)